S2 Ep011 An Innovative Toy Company that Promotes Inclusive History with Dr. Rose Perry & Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founders of Historicons, Pt1
Historicons is a visionary toy company that promotes diversity in representation. Co-founded by an architect-artist and published children’s author, and a research scientist with a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and Physiology specializing in child development, we talk about:
How Historicons designs toys about individuals and events that have traditionally been excluded from representation in media, toys, and history.
What criteria the Historicons team used to choose the subject matter for their first puzzles.
Why some of us aren’t already familiar with the notable accomplishments of the iconic, historic figures depicted in their puzzle games.
What representation (or lack of representation) of diverse groups reveals about our society.
Bio:
Rose Perry, PhD is a social neuroscientist turned social innovator. After over a decade of academic research exploring how social connections “get under the skin” to positively influence health, Dr. Perry founded Social Creatures, a nonprofit organization on a mission to ensure that any individual can socially connect with others, no matter the circumstances. Dr. Perry's passion for social connection and inclusion stems also from her experiences growing up with dwarfism. With these experiences in mind, Dr. Perry co-Founded Historicons, a toys and games company that uses lesser-told historical events to educate and empower kids (and their adults) on issues related to disability, race, gender, and other identity traits. You can learn more about Dr. Perry’s work at www.thesocialcreatures.org and www.historicons.com.
Bio:
Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founder, is a trained architect and an artist under the moniker Lil’ Icon. With a belief that sophisticated design is for all, he has published two books that playfully illustrate the connections between kids and adults. Using his signature bold and iconographic style, his artwork responds to the political and social climate in which we live and has been featured in The Washington Post, Buzzfeed, and billboards throughout New York City.
“We’re an activism platform, and we’re trying to increase representation for kids. The first toys that we have out there are puzzle games. The first three products are about the Stonewall Uprising, which talks about LGBTQ+ rights, the 504 Sit In, which is disability rights, and Little Rock Nine, which is about desegregation in schools. And if you don’t know about any of those stories, that’s okay, because I didn’t know about two of them, because they were not told to us growing up.
”
Transcript
Season 2, Episode 11 (Part 1) : An Innovative Toy Company that Promotes Inclusive History With Dr Rose Perry and Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founders of Historicons
Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founder of Historicons:
We're an activism platform, and we're trying to increase representation for kids. The first toys that we have out there are puzzle games. The first three products are about the Stonewall Uprising, which talks about LGBTQ+ rights, the 504 Sit In, which is disability rights, and Little Rock Nine, which is about desegregation in schools. And if you don't know about any of those stories, that's okay, because I didn't know about two of them, because they were not told to us growing up.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
This is “Towards a Kinderpublic,” a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to achieve a kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Our guests are the co-founders of the brilliant toy company Historicons: Rajiv Fernandez, the artist behind Lil’ Icon, and published children’s author, who is also trained as an architect, and Dr. Rose Perry, an applied research scientist with a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and Physiology, and the Founder and Executive Director of Social Creatures, an applied research nonprofit.
Historicons is a toy and games company with really innovative puzzle games, where players are transformed into a team of historians; and it is also, as we will hear in this podcast, an activist platform working to provide access to the history and role models (or, icons!) its founders wish they had learned about as kids. Quoting from the Historicons website, “Growing up, we rarely felt represented in the toys or media around us, or even in our history books, giving us little exposure to role models who were like us (disabled, female, queer, the child of immigrants, etc.).”
This is the first part of our two part conversation on diversity in representation, and the importance of having access to factual media and history. We encourage you to join us for both segments of this interview, which are powerful discussions about identity, control, and the effects of erasures and omissions in history.
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Rajiv Fernandez:
Hey, Cevan.
Cevan:
Hi there!
Rajiv Fernandez:
How are you?
Cevan:
Good, thanks. How are you?
Rajiv Fernandez:
Not bad. Good to see you after all these years.
Cevan:
Yeah, after all these years! It's great to see you! <laugh> Hi!
Dr. Rose Perry:
Hi. How are you?
Cevan:
Good, thanks. How are you? It's nice to meet you.
Dr. Rose Perry:
You too. Thanks for having us on. We're very excited for this.
Cevan:
Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to speaking with you and learning more about what you're doing. Before we get started, would you mind introducing yourself in your own voice so that each person is associated with the sound of their voice?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Sure. I'm happy to go first. Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Rose Perry. I'm a white, disabled woman living in Brooklyn with my dog and my husband, and I have a PhD in Neuroscience and Physiology. I'm excited to speak with you all today.
Rajiv Fernandez:
And my name's Rajiv Fernandez. I'm proud to be queer and brown. I am trained as an architect. I'm a published children's author, and my illustration work focuses on politics and social issues.
Cevan:
Awesome, thank you. And I'm Cevan Castle, and we're going to start our interview now with the first question that I have for you- and you've already shared a little bit- but could you share a bit more about your backgrounds, and how you came together and developed the idea for Historicons? And what is the premise of this wonderful business that you have co-founded?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Sure. So, Historicons ultimately came from a deep desire that both Rajiv and I had to create a product that we wish we had when we were kids. I have Russell Silver Dwarfism. Rajiv mentioned his background briefly, and I'm sure he'll have more to say on this, as well. But, neither of us really learned much about our histories growing up. We didn't really identify with history. I certainly didn't learn about disability history, for example, when I was in school.
But, in 2020, the social and political unrest that was occurring I think really sparked us into action. Given my background as a researcher, and my research is always focused on how social contexts and relationships get under the skin to influence child development, I had a lot of parents reaching out to me in 2020 asking hard questions: <laugh> when should I start talking about identity and race with my children? How do I even begin to address these questions with them? Are they old enough to understand? What's age appropriate?
And Rajiv was doing some really amazing work with his art, and combining that with social commentary. And ultimately we realized we could work together and marry our skill sets to build a product that is a springboard of discussion for parents and their kids to navigate topics around diversity and identity. And it's also worth mentioning that when we started this, we quickly brought on Deonna Smith who's not on this call today, but she is an anti-bias, anti-racist educator. So yeah, it's really been the three of us pushing out our products. But I'll turn it over to Rajiv to add more and maybe to explain about our products as well.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah, it's funny because a few years prior to us starting this, a mutual friend of ours was like, “Hey, you two should work together on something,” because, you know, Rose’s child development specialist background, and I had just come out with two children's books, and we were like, “Oh, okay,” you know, like making small talk. And then, you know, funny, like three years later we started a business together. I think it was like the perfect combination of our skills, and it's nice that we both took a passion project of ours and created something that has a lot of purpose behind it, that is resonating with a lot of people as well.
Cevan:
Would you share a description of the items that are available in the shop of your business?
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah, so right now, we're an activism platform, and we're trying to increase representation for kids. So, by doing that, we're creating toys and games.
So, the first toys that we have out there are puzzle games. The first three products are about the Stonewall Uprising, which talks about LGBTQ+ rights, the 504 Sit In, which is disability rights, and Little Rock Nine, which is about desegregation in schools. And if you don't know about any of those stories, that's okay, because I didn't know about two of them, until I started working on them. So you're never too old to learn about, you know, these events in history because they were not told to us growing up.
And that's really the purpose of it. Like, we're telling the stories that they quote unquote forgot to teach us, but we all know they didn't forget. They were purposely erased from the textbooks. Uh, anyway, <laughing> so, sorry. The question was, what products do we have? So we have the puzzle games, but they're beyond just a simple puzzle. There's a lot of interaction that goes into it. And besides the puzzle, we have links to downloadable lesson plans for educators and activity packs for kids to work on to continue the learning experience. As well as resources for parents. Go ahead.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah, I'll add that, I think a really cool feature of our puzzle games is that it transforms the players into a team of historians. So, the instructions that come with it tell the team of historians to piece together the who, what, when, where, and why behind the pivotal moments in history that are represented in the puzzle. And this is where Rajiv’s design skills really shine because he did some really great work in terms of the artwork on the puzzles, also hiding little easter eggs that are clues of the who, what, when, where, and why. And even the puzzle piece shapes are not your average puzzle piece shape. A lot of them are shapes of specific items or things, that also get to the who, what, when, where, and why behind the historical event. So it's really about exploring stories through history and kind of piecing it together, rather than just reading or, or listening to the story from history as you might do, reading a book or listening to a podcast.
Cevan:
Your puzzles are so cleverly designed. They're absolutely beautiful, and they have so many layers of information, from the images that make up the puzzle graphic, to the symbolic shapes of the puzzle pieces, which you just mentioned, to the way that you developed a game to allow players to act as detectives and learn more.
How did you select the historical content for your first puzzles? And can you also talk a bit about your work process and how you took that historical content and created such layered puzzles, where each aspect of the visual design is infused with information?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. So I can kick us off with that, Rajiv. So the team in the beginning of Historicons was myself, Rajiv, and Deonna. And we each curated one puzzle. So just simply, we just each picked a story that we wish we had heard or learned about when we were kids. So, for me, that was the story of the 504 Sit In, which gets into disability history. And yeah, in terms of my background and child development, the design principles that I brought to the table were wanting to make the puzzle games or make something in general, we didn't know it was gonna be a puzzle game at all when we started designing it.
Honestly, in the beginning we thought maybe this was just gonna be an Instagram series. We weren't even setting out to start a business in the beginning, but we ultimately wanted to make something as interactive as possible. We wanted kids to be able to come together with their adults, whether that be older siblings, parents, or educators to actively learn and explore together because chances are a lot of adults don't know this history either because we weren't taught it when we were kids.
It was also important to me that we made something that was tactile and something that encouraged learning through exploration and through play, but without being overwhelming and presenting a bunch of information at once. I know from my research background that children learn best through interactions in play, and that it's really great when adults follow children's lead and build on what children are wondering about or investigating. So we wanted to really be able to curate that experience and that ultimately led us to designing, not an Instagram series <laugh>, but what ended up becoming a puzzle game, something that really doesn't exist, prior to what we created.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yes. And like, having published two children's books, I knew the timeline to get them out in the world. It takes a long time, like over a year and, you know, a lot of the topics we were covering were very relevant at that time. But as we've learned over the past two years, it doesn't matter if it's in the newsroom right now, these are issues that are constantly being discussed. We wish we saw this back like 30 plus years ago, they're not going away, so there's a need for them.
But, we want to make something, you know, like Rose said, that was interactive and could be a visual reminder of the diversity that reflects us. So, you know, kids take pride, when they create things and like, that's why we put their art on the fridge. So now, by making them magnetic, they can put this thing that they've assembled together as a reminder and they can visually see it. We want it to kind of live in their play space or their kitchen space, the space that's around them. And with the typical puzzle, you put the puzzle together and then when you're done, you just put it back in the box and you forget about it.
So, we wanted something- metaphorically, we wanted the stories to stick- so we made it magnetic, so you know, you could put them anywhere.
And then as far as our design process, once we chose the historical event, we really looked at facts- facts that could be verified- because that's what history is, you know? We're not interpreting anything. We're basically telling them what happened at this event.
And we divided them into our six questions from where, when, what, who, why, and how. And then from there I would jump into design mode, and I would just start illustrating and drawing. And after, I think, drawing the first two, I figured out the template that works. So we have larger vignettes that tell significant moments from the event, and there's a feature of individuals, and of course the easter eggs throughout the puzzle.
So at first it started off with like this very rigid grid of people, and we realized when we did our first prototype, that it just wasn't a fun activity, if you just see like a grid of people. It's like the Brady Bunch intro. You're not learning anything about them. But once you just put a lot of content on there, kids' imaginations, you know, really like to explore. So the fact that they have this whole palette to kind of find new things in there, we realized, okay, this is gonna make it more interactive for them.
And I know Rose would take the lead on working on the copy and making it age appropriate for the kids. And Deonna definitely did that with the lesson plans, you know, she knew how to communicate with teachers. And so that's how we all used our skill sets to create this.
Cevan:
Yeah, those lesson plans I want to mention specifically as well- there's beautiful educational materials that are supplementary downloads along with the puzzle game. And so you've got materials for families, and you've got materials specifically for classrooms, and you've got those so professionally divided into different levels of learning. It really is such a great set of materials to add, and really, I feel like adults- just like you said- adults would love to have this and become more familiar with these events and individuals as well, because it is something that most of us did not get.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Thank you for that. Yeah. I think some of our favorite feedback, that we've gotten from our customers are when we hear that there's multiple generations that played with the puzzles, not just two generations, but grandma, mom and kid, or grandpa, dad and kid, and them all saying, wow, this was something that we actually all enjoyed together, we all learned together, and that was something that we were really reaching for. So it's been very validating to hear that.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. And even my mother who's an immigrant, you know, she's learning all this stuff for the first time because she wasn't taught American history growing up. So it's nice that it reaches a large age demographic.
Cevan:
So I'm gonna say it one more time, <laughing> the design of your puzzles is so deeply thought out, and wonderful, and your gameplay is collaborative, and these things together are so reflective of the historical moments that you have captured- collective actions and the many people who came together in the development and enforcement of meaningful changes towards equity. And I really appreciate your approach to history because it is about the collective and people coming together to make change.
Can you share historical figures that you have been inspired and influenced by? What aspects of those stories do you feel it is particularly important to share with kids? Have these ideas developed and changed for you?
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest, like I really didn't know much about LGBTQ+ history before I began creating these games. You know, being LGBTQ+ was not really part of my identity I had fully embraced yet, so I wasn't so aware of all the activists who came before me.
Learning about people like Marsha P. Johnson, and Sylvia Rivera, and Miss Major- who we, incredibly, got to meet earlier this week- they taught me that living your life authentically would allow you to thrive in all aspects of your life. And I also say that Harvey Milk is an inspirational figure to me, he was like in his forties when he really jumped into activism. So it says like, you're never really too old to devote your life to something that you're passionate about.
And then, something that I didn't really embrace growing up, was my Indian American identity. And I recently saw Indra Nooyi give a talk, and she's the former C.E.O. of PepsiCo, Indian born. Like, there was this intangible sense of pride I had, when I saw someone who looked like me attained the highest ranks of commerce. She sits on the board of Amazon. I finally knew that feeling of when you see someone look like you succeed, like you believe you can too.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. And similar to Rajiv, I think the process of making Historicon’s puzzles really just helped us learn about so many people that we didn't know about before. For me, disability rights activists that came before us have been hugely important to my sense of self and identity. Judy Huemann is one of my biggest role models, she's in our 504 Sit In puzzle. I didn't learn about her until the Netflix documentary Crip Camp came out in 2020. So- not that long ago. And watching that documentary honestly was the first thing that made me feel an immense sense of pride in my disability identity. It also made me, quite honestly, feel upset <laugh>, that I hadn't learned about it sooner, because of how much it shifted my sense of self and self-esteem.
And yeah, if you don't know the 504 Sit In story, either get one of our puzzles or go on Netflix and watch Crip Camp, it's pretty amazing, and it led to the first legally enforceable civil rights protection for people with disabilities in our country. And that didn't happen till 1977. So, we're talking 13 years after the Civil Rights Act that outlawed discrimination based on race, religion, sex, national origin. So yeah, I think, similar to what Rajiv said, kids need role models that they identify with and that they see themselves in. I mean, it certainly helped me even as an adult.
We hope to spark that through the stories and the figures that we highlight in our puzzles. And the ideas around the stories that I think are really important to spread, that I myself have benefited from, are ones of pride, power of pride in your identity. To your point, Cevan, community and collaboration, that collective action piece, like how much you can achieve when you come together as a community. And perseverance. And just telling kids that they can be change agents too, and they can make the world a better place. So we really try to reflect that in the stories that we choose to tell in our puzzles.
Cevan:
On your website, you have written touching personal statements, and I'll paraphrase one of the thoughts you share, that growing up you rarely felt represented in the toys and media around you, giving you little exposure to role models that were like you: disabled, female, queer, a child of immigrants. Speaking about the relationship between representation, or lack of representation and role models, on a personal level, what did it mean to not be able to find yourself in the role models and figures that were being pushed forward as the dominant storyline of history?
Rajiv Fernandez:
The only representation of someone who looked like me when I was growing up was Apu from The Simpsons. Like, I had nothing in common with him, but like all the white kids, they assumed he was indicative of my culture. And the thing is like when the stereotype is like the butt of the joke, it's really damaging. And, like it thickened my skin to bullying, but it also emboldened white America's like subjugation of marginalized voices.
So it was difficult because I think people in my parents' generations were… there was like elitism where they would say like, oh, like, it's fine, you know, you'll get over that. But they, I don't think they realized, how small it can make you feel as a child when the only representation is a caricature. So, but now in entertainment, I'm really drawn to like these coming of age stories, especially for LGBTQ+ youth and South Asians. And even though, like on tv, the storylines are pretty ridiculous, the fact that people like me are present on screen, that would've been so empowering as a teenager. And the best part about these stories is that they're being written and produced by people like me, my contemporaries. So it's really up to us to create this content that we wish we had.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. Similarly for me, for my childhood, for most of my life, even, I really didn't feel like I had any strong role models. And it wasn't because there weren't great, admirable people around me. It was more because I just didn't identify with the people that I saw around me. I didn't meet another little person until I was 17 years old. I lived in a pretty small town. I wasn't seeing little people represented in the media. I certainly didn't have books or toys about, uh, people with disabilities and dwarfism in general. And, yeah, I remember, I feel like in high school and college, people ask you, “What do you wanna be when you grow up?” Or, “Who are your role models?” And it just used to stress me out because I didn't know how to answer who my role model was.
I really didn't feel that I had an answer until I started learning about disability history. And that was because I saw myself, I could identify with a lot of the folks in disability history, and I felt pride because of that. It helped me dispel some of the shame that I had related to my identity because it wasn't something that was discussed much when I was growing up. And obviously I didn't have a community of people who had dwarfism like me. So, yeah, I think that just by learning about disability history, and, not just disability history, all of the puzzles that we've been putting together and just learning about change makers that had immense pride in their identity and stood up for what they deserved, has helped me personally feel a sense of greater belonging and value, and belonging in society. And it also helped me find a stronger sense of community. So I think it's really important and we're hoping that that can happen for kids perhaps sooner than it did for us.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. It took me a long time to realize that designing kitchens for rich people wasn't really improving the world. I'm sure you can relate, Cevan.
Cevan:
<laughing> Yes.
Rajiv:
So, yeah, it's finally at this point, you know, I'm in my late thirties, that I feel like the work that I'm doing actually has purpose and can make an impact.
Cevan:
Is it accurate to say that role models you would have been particularly inspired by and identified with existed, but they were held back or minimized, or erased from view?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Definitely. Uh, in my case, I feel very fortunate that I was able to meet who I now consider my biggest role model, Judy Huemann. Rajiv and I were both able to meet her, before she passed away earlier this year. I wish I would've known about her sooner. I feel like that if I had known about her sooner, I likely would've met her sooner and had more time with her.
She was truly one of the greatest civil rights leaders of our time and did not receive nearly enough mainstream recognition ever. And, the recognition that she did receive was really towards the end of her life. The contributions that she made have been since like the sixties and seventies. So the fact that a lot of people aren't learning about her till the 2020s is just wild to me. So hopefully we're helping to shift that. I know other folks are too, but yeah, that was not in our textbooks growing up. It wasn't in the media or books. And, I certainly feel I missed out because of that.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. And when we met Miss Major this week, I noticed a similarity between her and Judy was they're not out here to make a buck. They are here as activists. They want to elevate the voices of people like us, you know, who are disabled, LGBTQ+. Like, they just want to help. And, you can tell when someone's authentic or, as the kids say, you can tell their vibe. And it's just very genuine. So, you know, if we have more people like that who have like platforms, you know, definitely I think that's gonna empower a lot of people.
And then, like, when my parents immigrated here, their idea of success, and that generation's idea, was assimilating to white standards. And it's now taken 40 years for my generation to grow up and dismantle that notion. So, you know, as I've said before, we have to create the representation that we sought growing up.
Cevan:
Mm-hmmm. I think it's really interesting to talk about assimilating white standards when the white standards have removed a lot of remarkable people from view. So, those standards are not only false, but they're quite low, because it's really the standard of privilege and enhanced access.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yesterday I think, in Florida, [Governor Ron] DeSantis signed a bill that said A.A.P.I. history must be taught. And, there's a content creator on TikTok who did this incredible video, and she's like, “Hold up, let's read between the lines.” The reason they did that is because they're using the myth of the model minority as like, “Oh, we're not racist.”
But there's reasons why typically A.A.P.I. persons have achieved monetary success. There's this triangle there, where they're constantly trying to suppress the voices of Black Americans. So, really, it's a perpetuation of white supremacy, by passing this bill. If you're not going to allow all types of history that reflects the population to be taught in schools, then you're just really only, you know, bolstering one perspective.
Cevan:
Mm-hmm.
Rajiv Fernandez:
It's all about control.
Cevan:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
[Sounds of a busy neighborhood playground in Queens fade in to background]
Cevan:
Subscribe to Towards a Kinder Public on your favorite podcast player and please leave us a rating and a review. It helps increase the visibility of our message and we really appreciate your support. To share information about issues in public space, and spaces that are doing things right, email podcast@kinderpublic.com.
Links to more information about the guests and topics mentioned, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, are available on the podcast section of our website, kinderpublic.com. Visit our website to learn more about our work.
I’m Cevan Castle, our guests this week have been Dr. Rose Perry and Rajiv Fernandez, co-founders of Historicons. Look for Part 2 of this conversation next week!
[Sounds of neighborhood playground and bus passing in Queens fade out]
Mentioned in this episode:
Historicons Stonewall Uprising Puzzle Game
Historicons 504 Sit In Puzzle Game
504 Sit In, National Museum of American History
Historicons Little Rock Nine Puzzle Game
Little Rock Central High School National Historic Site
Anti-bias, anti-racist education
Asian American and Pacific Islander (A.A.P.I.)
Florida Restricts Teaching of Black History
Florida Requires Teaching of A.A.P.I. History