S2 Ep010 Navigating NYC as a Dad with a Young Daughter: Accessibility and Gendered Public Space with Dave Liao, Pt2
In part 2 of this 2-part episode, we talk about gender, safety, and accessibility in public space with Dave Liao, a work from home dad and web designer who is the owner/designer of Offpeak Design in NYC. We discuss:
Why all parents should be advocates for disability rights
When complements reveal gendered expectations about caregiving
The kinds of public spaces that are accommodating for both small children (and rowdy adults)
Why single-occupant, all-gender bathrooms are a necessity for all public spaces
Content advisory: Using indirect language, we reference male violence and abuse, and effects on feelings of safety, privacy, and equitable access to public space.
“That's especially why I found it cool to live in the city because you can have a lot of different experiences within a very small area. That said, there's also constant dangers. There's not a lot of green spaces where I live, so, it was always a bit of a challenge to find spaces that were outdoors that were safe and nice for small kids to play. Even going to the playground when you had a toddler, it felt a little risky because there were a lot of bigger kids running around that could knock your kid over. And then a lot of the surfaces were kind of hard and it didn't feel like it was ideal for really small kids. So, you'd have to find the right type of playground that could accommodate smaller kids.” -Dave Liao
Transcript
Season 2, Episode 10 (Part 2) : Navigating NYC as a Dad with a Young Daughter: Accessibility and Gendered Public Space with Dave Liao
Dave Liao, Guest:
I think I would notice that as well, if I see a father doing something that is not traditionally perceived as the role for the father. I would take note of that, and I would appreciate them for putting themselves out there and doing that.
At the same time, I recognize, you know, it's kind of a little unfair because mothers have been doing it, and not cared about when they're seen doing it, they're sort of expected to do these things. So at the same time, you want to be aware of that and recognize mothers as well.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
This is ‘Towards a Kinderpublic’, a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to design kinder space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Our guest is Dave Liao, who is Chinese American, a dad, and a web designer who has been working from home for many years. He is an expert on navigating the city as a dad with a small child. Dave lives with his family in Queens, New York, in one of the most vibrant and diverse urban areas of the world.
This is the second part of our interview. If you have not accessed Part 1, look for Episode 009 on your podcast player or find the audio and a full transcript on our website, www.kinderpublic.com under the podcast tab.
This interview is personal, and direct, and highlights important themes about inclusion throughout the conversation. We reflect on the specific challenges of parenting in the city including the use of public transportation, but all parents will recognize the challenges in this supportive and understanding discussion.
This episode is rated clean for content, but I would like to provide a content advisory: there are allusions to male violence and abuse. These comments are made in the vague language that parents often use to discuss to grown-up issues without divulging too much of the subject matter to children. But, for survivors and those listening to the episode with children nearby, please be aware that this episode references adult themes and how they impact feelings of safety, privacy, and ability to use public space, including bathroom spaces.
To all parents, I hope this discussion about navigating public space with a small child brings you a feeling of camaraderie and recognition for all that you do. And to all of our listeners, this episode references items we can immediately improve, and items we need to talk about more openly. Thank you so much for listening.
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, Opening Interview:
Welcome back!
We’re picking up the conversation where we left off, we’ve just finished getting a little bit of a picture of Dave’s day as a stay-at-home dad with a small child. And the context is New York City, just as a reminder.
If you were ever leaving the walkable neighborhood for an activity with your child, what transportation did you typically use? And was it comfortable for you to use with a small child?
Dave Liao:
We didn't have a car at the time. And so we had to navigate using public transportation, or a stroller, or when she got a little older, a scooter. Let's start with the stroller: it's very convenient to use a stroller in the city. We have lots of sidewalks, but then you would navigate to a location where it wasn't convenient to have a stroller and then it would be a nightmare. I'm sure most parents can relate to, just walking through a door is always a challenge with a stroller. And so you learn certain techniques, but sometimes you're trying to get into a busy store or something and it's kind of tricky. I think I always appreciated the helpfulness of strangers in those situations when they would just open the door for you or something like that. You definitely appreciate it. At the same time I'd be like, I could do this myself. I don't need your help. Sometimes my pride would kick in or something like that.
Or, when going up subway stairs [to the elevated platforms in Queens], I hope that it's a lot better now. I don't really know what the circumstances are now with the New York City subway system, but at that time I definitely found it very challenging. I definitely felt like, you know, “oh, I wish I was more of an advocate for handicap rights in the subway,” or accessibility in the subways, because you could really understand the difficulty it is traveling around the subway when you're trying to move a stroller around, and safely.
Cevan:
Right.
Dave Liao:
And there's no elevator. And a lot of stations that did have elevators, they wouldn't work, or, they'd be really disgusting, or they'd be really out of the way. I mean, it just took you a long time, and sometimes it would be very hard to find them. And not every stop had them, so you didn't have the flexibility of just going wherever you wanted. You sort of had to make a plan, for me, I guess the basic rule for me was just to go to stations that were major stations or main hubs. So they were more likely to have accessible elevators and or escalators or something like that.
Cevan:
And the distance between stations that were main hubs or large enough to have an elevator might be blocks and blocks and blocks.
Dave Liao:
Yeah. And you'd be willing to, if you had the time, you'd be willing to make that sacrifice, if just to have that convenience because sometimes, you know, trying to go up the stairs with a stroller…
Cevan:
Carrying it, right? You'd have to carry it.
Dave Liao:
Carrying it. Yeah. You’d have to carry it…
Cevan:
With a child. <laughing>
Dave Liao:
…With a child, and sometimes with very awkward hanging bags and, and all kinds of things hanging off of it.
You know, strollers are very convenient when you're rolling on a smooth sidewalk and there's not a lot of people. But then other than that, they're really very awkward and very hard to use. So, I think a lot of times I opted not to bring the stroller, I would just opt to use a carrier and just have a backpack for other things. And I think that was usually my preferred method of traveling with a small child in the city. It just felt more like I had more flexibility and more, you know, free to do what I needed to do, as opposed to having to be very restricted by this very large and cumbersome thing, so.
Cevan:
That's quite a physical workout though, to have the carrier, I mean the baby carrier.
Dave Liao:
Right, that's why I was saying, I do feel like, maybe as a man, <laugh> I wasn't that strong back then, but I think just men usually have more upper body strength. So I felt like that was a little bit of more of an advantage there.
When it comes to traveling, subways were very challenging because of all the stairs. So a lot of times I would try to do the buses because then you're just getting on the bus from the street level. It's not as challenging. But, I did feel it was hard to bring a stroller into buses. You had to fold the stroller, and…
Cevan:
So the process would be: taking the child out of the stroller, folding up the stroller, while the child is standing free…
Dave Liao:
Right. You let the child out and you go, “run to that seat, run!” Because the bus is going to start moving and then you're gonna flop all over the place. You know, so your child will find a seat, they'd have a great time staring out the window. Meanwhile, you're busy folding things and tripping over stuff and trying to lug everything to the seat and find a seat. And then at the same time, trying to make sure your kid is not touching weird stuff, or licking stuff.
And that reminds me of like, being a dad, I felt that people did notice me as someone taking care of a small child, I think differently, than they would notice a woman, or a mother, or a babysitter or any woman.
I think sometimes, it would be a look of concern because it's like, ”okay, who is this guy?” And because my daughter is biracial, right? So she's half white, half Chinese, and so she'd have brownish kind of hair, curly hair. And I looked very different. And so I thought like people thought it was kind of unusual, people would take a double take, and they would sort of say, “oh, what's the relationship going on here?”
And I was often, you know, maybe this is all my head, but I just felt like I was getting that kind of look. So, I was often aware of that and tried to- again, I'm overcompensating for this perception- and trying to show I am the father, and I am a good person taking care of this person and not doing anything shady or harmful. I feel like it's probably a different experience for fathers who look the same as their child and also, fathers in general because, fathers are probably perceived, men are probably perceived, and rightly so, that they could be more dangerous than a woman might be to a child.
Cevan:
Do you feel like you received more accolades as a dad with a small child, or do you feel like your competence was questioned? Did you ever feel like you ever noticed anything like that?
Dave Liao:
Yeah, definitely both. I mean, there's times where people make assumptions because you're a dad, so that you don't know how to do anything. And so they sort of say, let me show you how to do stuff. And, sometimes it's helpful, but sometimes it's an assumption or something like that. Also at the same time, I do also feel like maybe a lot of dads are unfairly praised for being dads, because they are… I remember when I was on the bus with my daughter and I was combing her hair and I was putting in the little- what do you call it- the little clips in her hair, you know, making ponytails and stuff like that. And this woman was sitting next to us and observing, and she's like, oh, you know, “you're such a good father.”
And I was like, “oh, thank you very much.” But, I was thinking, you know, she's sort of making a judgment because of this one act. I could be a terrible father, <laugh>, you know, I'm sure we all kind of question ourselves in that regard. But I also feel like she's doing that because I was a guy doing this, and it probably stood out to her, like, this is unusual to see a father publicly making a ponytail for his daughter
Yeah, and I'm aware of that perception. I mean, I think I grew up kind of understanding that too. And I think I would notice that as well, if I see a father doing something that is not traditionally perceived as the role for the father. You know, I would take note of that and I would appreciate them for putting themselves out there and doing that.
At the same time, I recognize, you know, it's kind of a little unfair because mothers have been doing it and not cared about when they're seen doing it, they're sort of expected to do these things. So at the same time, you want to be aware of that and recognize mothers as well for doing that.
And so, yeah, and it's hard because I often times want to connect with mothers about these things- you know, with strangers- I mean, mothers that I see that are going through challenging times, sometimes I'll see the mother carrying the toddler in her arms walking down the block, and I know what she's going through. I know that she's going a distance because the toddler doesn't want to walk anymore and she doesn't have a stroller and they need to get to a destination and she just has to carry the child. And it's hard.
Yeah, so I think, there's those kind of challenges. And I hope we come to a point in society where men become more responsible, or definitely perceived because it's true that they're more responsible as parents, and that they're can be more supportive to the community's kids and things like that.
Yeah. So, I'm very happy not to have a stroller anymore. <laugh>
Cevan:
Yeah. Right. <laugh>
I remember having like three styles of strollers, one for every specific kind of <laugh>, you know, journey that we might need to make.
Dave Liao:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Outside of dedicated child spaces, like preschool programs, did you develop favorite places to go with your child that felt really comfortable to you? What types of places were these and what made them accommodating for you?
Dave Liao:
Well, that reminds me of the services you provided back when we first met, which was the art class.
Cevan:
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dave Liao:
So, all these kind of classes for little kids, to have those resources in the community, were very valuable and very helpful. Especially your class, I remember, your style of letting the kids explore art in a very free, not overly structured way, really let them enjoy it. So any opportunity like that to have them explore things, explore the world. I feel like when you go to a lot of daycare experiences or places for kids to play, sometimes it's a little bit too structured and so it doesn't allow the kids to really be themselves sometimes. And so, yeah, I try to find places that sort of give her the room to do that.
I'm trying to think back to where did I hang out at those times. Mostly it was like those types of things, a lot of times it was play dates, setting up play dates with other parents. We didn't really need a lot, we didn't really need to travel too much because when the kids were little, their block was a big world to them. And so just walking down the street was kind of an adventure for little toddlers. I’m very thankful for that because, like you said, it's very hard to travel with little kids.
That's especially why I found it cool to live in the city because you can have a lot of different experiences within a very small area. That said, there's also constant dangers. There's not a lot of green spaces where I live, so, it was always a bit of a challenge to find spaces that were outdoors that were safe and nice for small kids to play. Even going to the playground when you had a toddler, it felt a little risky because there were a lot of bigger kids running around that could knock your kid over. And then a lot of the surfaces were kind of hard and it didn't feel like it was ideal for really small kids. So, you'd have to find the right type of playground that could accommodate smaller kids.
I definitely tried to go to parks as much as I could, whether if I had to take the subway or a bus to get there, it was worth it because being in the city, you definitely don't want your kid to be afraid of grass growing up or anything like that. So sometimes you hear these stories where kids don't see snow or they don't see grass for the first time and it freaks them out. So I always have that in my back of my head and always trying to give her as many experiences as she can have so she can cope with all these different environments.
And like, if you go to stores and stuff like that, that's another place for kids to explore things. So a lot of times I would just take her to the local drugstore, like Rite Aid or something like that and just let her explore the shelves because there's all these things and you don't have to worry about them breaking things or destroying things because those are areas that are usually designed for public interaction.
Other places during the day are pubs because they are usually pretty empty in the daytime. And they're also built very sturdily and you don't have to worry about a kid climbing chairs or seats and things like that, or making a mess because that's what they're designed for- they're designed for adults to do that at night. So it takes the pressure off as a parent.
At first I think we tried to go to nice restaurants where we like to eat. And then we tried to have an experience there with a small child, and it was a nightmare because your kid would start crying and destroying the experience for the other guests who didn't have children. And so you learn quickly that those places weren't really for you anymore.
You have to go to a place that is more accepting of children and also has the environment that your child can feel free to be themselves without, you know, worrying too much.
Cevan:
Yeah. And there's no tablecloth involved. <laugh>
Dave Liao:
Yeah. For pulling down and destroying everything. Yeah.
Cevan:
I love the way that you explained that. That's true. And in your neighborhood, there's a lot of really nice family oriented pubs with outdoor patio areas, and it's really ideal for kids.
And sturdy furniture. <laugh>
Dave Liao:
<laugh>. Yeah, exactly.
Cevan:
Carrying on with that, were there particular amenities that you looked for at a destination to know if the place would be comfortable and accommodating for a dad with a small child?
Dave Liao:
I think what you mean in particular is probably bathrooms. Especially because, it was, you know, it's definitely a little tricky with men's rooms, right? It's a little bit weird to have a child in the men's room because, um, well, you know, because men, right? Because men tend to be more of a risk concern than women. I tend to avoid using men's rooms. I always try to find a family room or I'd find a public space that I was comfortable using like for diaper changing. And if she had to go to the bathroom, I would definitely try to use a family's room, but then yes, I would have to end up using the men's room because I couldn't go into the women's room with her.
I would often look for spaces that had unisex bathrooms or had family bathrooms, that wasn't too hard to find in the city. A lot of restaurants, they're usually unisex, they would have just one bathroom, and so you could bring your kids to that and then you can make sure they're okay. I remember like, it was getting tricky when she started to go on her own and she wanted to have that independence and then she wanted to use the woman's bathroom on her own. And so, you know, that was a little bit of a trying time because then we'd be in different places in the public, she wanted to use the bathroom and I would take her to the bathroom and then I would linger outside of the woman's room, you know, waiting for her <laugh> and kind of leaning in towards the door because I'm a little nervous and there might be somebody else in there and I'm nervous about that.
There were a couple cases actually where security would come over and say, “hey, what are you doing here?” <laugh> “Why are you hanging out by women’s bathroom?”
And, you know, and I'd have to sort of explain the situation. So that's always been kind of a little bit of a challenge. And, you know, there's always challenges like that, as your child transitions into a new phase in their life. That's the tough thing about parenting- once you feel like you finally mastered something, that thing goes away. Now it's the next thing that you have to learn how to do.
Cevan:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So just to clarify for people who might not have the same familiarity with New York City and the restaurants and spaces there, it wasn't that you were necessarily finding family bathrooms, what we would call family bathrooms. There were a lot of single occupant bathrooms. Right. The smaller bathroom that was not assigned to any gender and it was a single occupant serving facility. Right?
Dave Liao:
Right.
Cevan:
I was going to ask you if you were able to find many men's bathrooms with diaper changing facilities, but it sounds like even if they had been there, you would've preferred the family bathroom or the single occupant bathroom?
Dave Liao:
Yeah. I think it's just, it's a little weird to do baby changing in the men's room. I'm a man, but men are kind of, can be gross sometimes. <laugh> So I just want to protect my child from that.
Cevan:
You perceived that to be less safe and less private.
Dave Liao:
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure we've all encountered lewd behavior or men sort of being weird about things. I think that's why I just didn't feel comfortable using the men's room for that purpose unless I really had to. I prefer to use a family designated room with a changing table.
But a lot of times what I ended up doing was just find a bench or something where, you know, I felt I'd feel safer like using a bench or a chair under a table with a chair and change your child on the chair, so you'd have some coverage. So yeah, a lot of times it would just work out like that.
Cevan:
This might not be the case at all, but I'm wondering if insufficient access to accommodations, perhaps due to society’s gendered expectations around caregiving, or just due to general lack of the types of space needed for infants and children, ever discouraged you from visiting activities that were farther away from your neighborhood because you weren't sure that you would be able to have access to all of the spaces, and privacy that you needed? Or the opportunities to maybe handle other tasks like heating up a bottle or doing things like that?
Dave Liao:
Oh, um hmm. That's a long, it's, it's kind of far away from me, <laugh> for me to remember whether did I have any limitations I think that kept me from going, traveling to places.
I mean, I think in general there's that limitation. I think there because there's just so many obstacles when traveling, even short distances, that any kind of long distance travel would sort of be avoided because, you know, because it was just so hard to handle napping, to handle feeding, to handle changing and various other things, I guess, tantrums and so forth.
It's sort of like you really had to pick a place that was very versatile and had a lot of resources. I prefer to go places that were just really more like hubs of things so that you would always have access to different avenues in case anything went, uh, you know, anything happens, which they often did.
Cevan:
Would a hub be a location with a lot of differentiated kinds of facilities or spaces? What would a hub be?
Dave Liao:
I guess a central location. Maybe an area or restaurant that's in a central location where it's close to transportation, where it's close to a lot of resources like bathrooms and spaces where you have options in case you know you need to do stuff. So, not a place that's sort of isolated like a store or a restaurant that's sort of isolated and doesn't have a lot around it. A lot of options around it to deal with whatever came your way.
Cevan:
I was curious to see if you defined it the same way that I did. And I think that we have the same sort of sensibility about that.
What's different for people who live outside a more densely built area, and for people who own cars, is that the parental retreat happens to a car <laugh>, you know, often where you have that privacy, you have quiet, you might have additional resources that you've kind of built up in your car. But in the city, I feel like now that I've experienced both conditions as a parent, it's like, you need to make sure that you have a variety of things available to you. Because if you have to leave the area, you might have to be on foot or on transportation a long time until you can get to that quieter area or that space.
Dave Liao:
Yeah. I didn't think about that. But yes, the convenience of a car is definitely something that I wish I could enjoy early in those early years because, certainly for traveling and certainly for having a private space that's available to you, is very much overlooked. On the other hand, of course, I prefer not to have a car because of the environmental impact, and also the headache of having a car in the city is hard. But, we recently got a parking space and so we got a car during the pandemic and we're not gonna look back on that. <laugh>
Cevan:
If you have a parking space, you've won the lottery, right? <laugh>
Dave Liao:
Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. And you know, it costs a lot, but you're like, “oh, it's an essential part of our lives to have that convenience and, and give us some level of sanity.” We used to have to plan everything more meticulously whenever we traveled or if we had to do some kind of shopping or something like that. And so having the parking space is very convenient to be able to do that.
Cevan:
This may not apply, but I'm wondering, because you're very hands-on dad and you take on a lot of the parenting responsibilities in your family, and that's not to minimize or understate the amount of work that your spouse is putting in, you're both working together very hard.
Do you ever feel that gendered expectations of caregiving ever caused you to adjust the way your family balanced the tasks of parenting while you were out of the house? So, for example, if your spouse was with you, would she have possibly taken on an extra task because she would be more likely to find the kinds of amenities needed, because they were designated specifically for women?
Dave Liao:
Yeah, I think that happens more so, especially as my daughter gets older, that she has a lot more capability of doing that as a woman, because like, like you say, for example, bringing her to the bathroom as I just talked about. The challenges of a man bringing their kid to the bathroom can be difficult, especially as they get older.
I'm not sure if there's many other circumstances where gender plays a role. I'm sure there are.
Cevan:
Yeah, I think that's the big one. I'm wondering, did you ever run across something like an infant room, what is sometimes called a mother's room, and feel like you were excluded from that space?
Dave Liao:
I don't know if I ever felt really particularly excluded. I mean, I feel that, there are definitely perceived general roles in general, and so when you're entering a situation with kids, you sort of play that role. Like, for example, if you go to a play space or something. Recently we went to one of these trampoline parks indoors. And so, I guess the feeling is that the women, they gather together, they take care of the kids, and then the fathers are sort of just standing around. That's usually a typical experience where the mothers tend to feel more comfortable gathering around and talking and sharing their experiences where the fathers tend not to. It does happen, but it I feel like it's not as often. You often feel the men are sort of at playgrounds at other kinds of spaces with kids, the men are often just standing around and often by themselves, either by choice or, because that's just the culture around it.
Playgrounds for me have always been kind of a struggling point because, for my own child, I wanted her to have a lot of friends on the playground. I wanted her to feel comfortable making friends and making relationships but because I was a man, you know, kids were naturally shy, so it's hard for them to initiate that contact with other kids, other stranger kids. So, I would want to support, I would want to help that along by introducing myself to the other kid and talking to them together, to try to form some kind of connection and then once they feel comfortable to start to engage each other, then they can go off and play.
But in order to have that warm-up period, I need to be able to be involved and, and communicate with that child or their parent, whether it's a father or mother. I think it's usually easier to talk to another dad about that, you know, to start to start to engage them because then I'm a dad, they're a dad, it's no problem.
But when it's a mother, it's a little more tricky. I have to be more sensitive about it, and I think this also could be just in my head, but I think it often can appear like I'm flirting with them, or I could just be some kind of weirdo. They don't know, but I'm a guy, so there's that threat. If I'm a weirdo woman, they could probably handle it better. But if it's a guy who's weirdo, that's probably more of a challenge. So, you know, again, there's another place in my life where I try to overcompensate by being extra nice and, and show that I am a good person and that I'm a safe person to be around.
Cevan:
That was an amazing answer. Showing that you're a safe person and being really aware that there is a safety issue there.
Dave Liao:
Yeah. And I feel like that's something that's changing now. I do see more fathers who are not just there because they have to be there, but they are more fathers who are out there, who are more engaged because they want to be more engaged, because maybe they're in similar circumstances where they work at home now, especially due to the pandemic. I feel like the culture has shifted a little bit where men are becoming more engaged in the parenting process and are interested in that.
And so I hope that eventually it becomes more equalized there. And at the same time, I don't feel bad for myself. I do feel I am privileged as a man. Men have received all kinds of privileges in the past, and women have all kinds of struggles in the past. I don't feel bad about it, I'm aware that that exists and that, for me personally, it's just a little bit of a struggle to deal with those circumstances, you know?
Also because I live in Queens, there's also a lot of cultural differences I'm noting. Like I said, a lot of the kids are Americanized because they grew up here, but the parents are often immigrants. At least the parents that I encounter on the playground here are mostly immigrant parents. And so there's a big cultural difference, and so there's a lot of communication gaps between us. I definitely found it was very challenging to try to make connections in those circumstances. But, I feel like I have to be persistent because I do want those connections. I don't want to feel like I'm just connecting with people who are like me and who share my views and beliefs and my experiences.
That's the whole reason I'm here, I want to connect with people who have very different experiences and who can give me that kind of personal growth in terms of understanding what those differences are and those experiences are.
So a lot of her friends do have those parents who are from other places, English is their second language, and we make it work. Because we do have that communication gap, we kind of keep things pretty light in terms of our interactions. And so when I do have time to actually sit with them and have deeper conversations, I'm often enlightened about what their views are or their experiences it are, because when you have kids, I feel like a lot of times as parents, we don't have a lot of opportunities to have deep conversations or deeper experiences with other people because we're just very preoccupied with being a parent.
So a lot of times even you're just trying to say hello to somebody and trying to have any kind of conversation, you feel immediately like tugged away from that. That’s something I've adjusted to and I feel a little bit sad about because you don't have that sense of, um, no longer have that sense of self where you're creating connections and relationships with a lot of people in a deep and meaningful way anymore because you're trying to do that with your own child now. You're investing all that energy in your child or children, and so, you know, that's the trade off. And you, you have to be okay with that. <laugh> I'm okay with that because, of course I want that with my child, but I guess I kind of also miss having those kinds of deeper or more developed relationships with other people.
Cevan:
That was a very, very beautiful statement… hearing differences in different opinions and making space for those things and making it work because you have a commitment to the relationship and you have a commitment to your child having relationships.
Dave Liao:
Awww. Thank you.
Cevan:
I really want to thank you so much for sharing your time, so generously, it has been an absolutely wonderful conversation.
Dave Liao:
Oh, thank you so much. Um, yeah, I really enjoyed it. It's, it's definitely, uh, a wonderful experience to, to talk about these things and to reflect on these things and, and, you know, definitely gives me a sense of empowerment to be able to do that. So thank you for, for giving me that opportunity.
Cevan:
How can listeners find you online and support your work?
Dave Liao:
I guess you could find me online through my social media, but, you could just find me through Off Peak Design, by Googling Off Peak Design, or going to www.offpeakdesign.com with no dashes or anything. And if you wanna connect, I'm on social media and Instagram and Facebook, and LinkedIn or something like that, but I try to socialize more in person than online, but I'll look there occasionally.
Cevan:
So, visit Queens. <laugh>
Dave Liao:
<laugh> Yes.
Cevan:
That's great. Thank you so much.
Dave Liao:
Thank you.
[Sounds of a busy neighborhood playground in Queens fade in to background]
Cevan:
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I’m Cevan Castle, our guest this week has been Dave Liao. Thanks for listening, I wish you a good week.
[Sounds of neighborhood playground and bus passing in Queens fade out]